Rants & Reflections

Cue ominous music: the Harry Potter canon debate

*folds hands atop desk* Hello.

rocky horror criminologist

I come to you today to discuss an important matter: namely, the issue of canon in the Harry Potter community. This issue has been long debated, and it is my wish to enter the conversation and extend it to my peers here on Bookpress and the general interwebs. This post comes to you as part of my Remembrall Readathon series, in light of having finished book 6 and almost book 7. I decided not to talk particulars about HBP or DH, because time is running short and the Cursed Child release is upon us. So instead I shall be discussing the issue that tears at many otherwise harmonious fans: canon.

Let us first begin by defining some terms:

Canon: the material accepted as officially part of the story in an individual universe of that story (source: Wikipedia)

Headcanon: An idea or opinion about a fictional series (book, TV, comic, or otherwise) that is true in one’s head, but has not become a canon fact (source: Urban Dictionary)

Fan fiction: fiction about characters or settings from an original work of fiction, created by fans of that work rather than by its creator (source: Wikipedia)

Now that that’s out of the way, let me explain why this has become an issue. Once upon a time, there was a book series called Harry Potter that was written by J.K. Rowling and contained 7 books. The books were then made into 8 films, which followed some of their own slightly different plots. Therefore, the Harry Potter fans separated their canon between book canon and movie canon. All was well.

All was well Harry Potter

Then other things started to happen. In 2007, Jo announced in an interview that Dumbledore was gay. Ok, cool. In 2011, a website called Pottermore launched, on which she published short pieces of writing about the Wizarding World that revealed extra content beyond what’s included in the books: things like character backstories and info on different wand types. Cool. Years later, she became active on Twitter, randomly revealing even more as yet unknown details about the Wizarding World in 140 characters or less. Now we have a play with a published script not written by Jo, 3 Hogwarts textbooks, a short story prequel about James ad Sirius (props to anyone who remembers that), a new movie series set in America written by Jo, and many other odds and ends she has added to the Potterverse. That’s a lot of content.

So here’s the debate: one side argues that the Harry Potter canon should only be considered what is written between the covers of books 1-7 of the Harry Potter series. The other side argues that everything J.K. Rowling writes or says (regardless of medium) is canon.

And I am so conflicted.

If you didn’t already know, I’m a staff member at MuggleNet.com (The World’s #1 Harry Potter Fan Site!), and over at MuggleNet, our directors and partners in crime, Kat Miller and Keith Hawk, disagree on this point fervently. Kat argues that all the extra material is part of the Potterverse, and is therefore canon, but Keith holds firm that the canon is exclusive to the pages of the 7 books, and no more. You can read their excellent editorials here and here on MuggleNet to see their reasoning.

Here’s my question: if the content beyond the 7 books is not canon, then what is it? I disagree with Keith’s reasoning that the extra content Jo writes is fan fiction; that is taking it a bit too far. (Sorry, Keith, you’re still the best!!) She isn’t a fan, she’s the creator of the Potterverse, so what she writes is certainly not fan fiction. But if it’s not canon or fan fiction, what is it? Is it Jo’s headcanon? And if so, wouldn’t that make it just plain canon? Kat’s use of the term “extended canon” is a little closer, but still implies “canon.” Maybe something like “extended content?” Whatever. Semantics.

In his article, Keith makes reference to Tolkien canon and Star Trek canon. I can’t offer any insight on Star Trek, but as far as Tolkien is concerned, I’d argue that everything he wrote within the Middle Earth Universe is canon. The problem with comparing this to Rowling, though, is that Rowling has written extended canon in more types of media than Tolkien, whose work is all traditional print sources. The internet changes things. Does a Tweet count as canon when JKR said Hagrid can’t produce a Patronus? Does the promotional material on Pottermore count? She wrote it. But it’s not in print. How does this bear on what we consider canon?

I guess it’s really up to you as a fan to make that call. From a fandom standpoint, the extra content is the lifeblood we thrive on. But from a literary standpoint, years down the line (and even in present day), when Rowling is being examined like Tolkien in lit classes, people are going to ignore all the extra stuff. What will matter are the 7 Harry Potter books. My cognitive dissonance on this topic probably stems from the fact that I am both a fan and a literary/English major-y type, so I’m not sure which side to choose.

I’m conflicted because the fan part of me always wants more Potter. Anything. Everything. All the things. Potter is my favorite; give me more. There was a time when any little extra bit of info from Jo would send me into a frenzy, hair frizzling like Hermione. But not anymore…

Now, I’m getting tired of it. I’m feeling a bit exploited, a bit taken advantage of, and just plain tired. And I’m more skeptical. I think these feelings stem from fear. I fear that more and more extra info will keep chipping away at my enthusiasm and love for the originals. I fear that one day she will make some comment that Sirius was a pedophile or that Harry and Ginny get divorced or something. Now I live in uncertainty.

But what I am certain about is this: the idea that “books belong to their readers” (to quote John Green). Once a work is out there in the world, the readers get to interpret it in whatever way they will. That’s the beauty and point of literature; your Harry is different than my Harry is different than everyone’s Harry. When J.K. Rowling posts a tweet with new HP information, I feel like it’s taking away my agency as a reader to interpret the text. If in my interpretation, Hermione and Ron’s relationship is airtight and unbreakable, and Rowling posts on Twitter that she thinks they’ll need marriage counseling one day, does that make my interpretation all of a sudden wrong? If we worked by this assumption, so much literary agency would be taken away from us, and that’s not how I view the point of literature.

There is an article in the New York Times that expresses my feeling on the topic quite well. Maggie Stiefvater was actually interviewed in this article, providing insight as an author and a Harry Potter fan. As an author, she doesn’t like revealing extra details about her characters beyond what’s in her books. And she doesn’t like it as a reader when other authors do it. This particular quote from her regarding Potter rang true for me:

“[P]eople aren’t remembering the series as much as the cultural phenomenon.” Of the new details that have emerged over the years, she said, “they ripple throughout fandom, and for fandom it’s highly rewarding, but as a reader it’s not how I engage with books.”

This most recent reread of the series has highlighted this point for me: with everything that has come out from the Wizarding World, Harry Potter has become more about the phenomenon and less about the books. They’ve even got a logo to prove it now. It’s no longer just Harry Potter; it’s J.K. Rowling’s Wizarding World.

wizard2x

You could further this discussion with thoughts about money and marketing and business-y things, but that doesn’t interest me. I understand that the success of the series lends itself to everyone wanting to make as much money off of it as possible. Yes, fine, whatever, that’s how these things work. What interests me more is the implications this has for the story itself. I fear we may have reached the point where the extra stuff is detracting from the original stories. The books themselves are so rich, they are all we need. I’d be happy if we only had the books. I’m kinda starting to wish that were the case.

Because what is this darn play? Technically, Rowling didn’t actually write the words. Her name is on it because it is her story, her content, characters, plot. But the playwright is Jack Thorne. It’s starting to be a question of where do we draw the line? Our fandom is very young; we don’t have a crap-ton of extra books/video games/movies/etc. like Star Wars/Star Trek/Marvel/etc., but we will, and then what will we do? I think the key to Cursed Child is on the cover: “based on an original new story by J.K. Rowling.” If I consider everything “based on” Harry Potter canon, I’d have to include the maps of Hogwarts from the video games, the stories from the Wii Harry Potter Book of Spells, and God forbid, the whole entire movie series. I see Cursed Child the way I see the movies – Rowling had a hand in creating something based on her stories, but it’s not an actual Harry Potter book, so to me it’s not canon. So what is Harry Potter and the Cursed Child?? Just another text that adds to the phenomenon, but not the story.

TL;DR: I used to belong to the “everything-is-canon camp,” but I think I’m moving to the “just-the-books” camp. I want to go back to the days when we were tearing apart every sentence in speculation for the next book to arrive. When there weren’t movies or theme parks or websites or plays (though as a mega-fan, I hate admitting that). I want a return to the text. To the….and I’m saying this now…true Harry Potter canon.

33 thoughts on “Cue ominous music: the Harry Potter canon debate”

  1. Welcome to my world Emily and thank you for the exceptional article and reasoning.

    If you don’t mind, I’d like to share this with you and your readers so they get a little more sense as to why my view (and now yours) is just the 7-books published between 1997 and 2007. (For the record, I’m fine with both Bloomsbury and Scholastic versions even though there are some differences).

    In order for a fantasy or science fiction world to work and become timeless in literature, it needs to be able to exist in its own world as if it’s a real world. The more outside material that is added, the more inconsistencies are created, the less real this world becomes. The less real, the less timeless.

    Let the magic of the Wizarding World remain timeless in literature. Leave it alone and stop adding to it.

    Thanks Emily!!! 50 points to Ravenclaw!

    Liked by 1 person

    1. My super-long thoughts atm re: Cursed Child & HP canon:
      I’ve placed Cursed Child on hold at the library and am waiting for the e-mail telling me it’s in. Having read the scene-by-scene spoiler synopsis and plenty of reviews/reactions, I think I already know just about all there is to know, and am not in a gigantic hurry…but I do hope that reading the play itself will be a pleasure and make it all feel more “real.”

      Far as I’m concerned, JKR should continue writing and revealing as much as she’d like about the Wizarding World—past, present, and future. As much as she can, anyway, without “losing her touch.” This franchise is uncommonly complex and certainly warrants more. Personally…using one’s imagination is fun for a while, sure. And we don’t need *every* last little tiny detail explicitly filled in. But when it comes down to it, I prefer KNOWING. Everybody’s got their own imagination; I want the truth. Give me trivia, give me minutia! FUN! That’ll spur my imagination on further, too. It’s her prerogative to add on as much as she thinks is a good idea and wants to. There’s no time limit. I’m not interested strictly in what she’d thought of by the time of DH’s publication. I welcome almost anything she has to share. Almost.

      I’m not totally comfortable with the idea that fans get to collectively declare something non-canon…and yet, at the same time, I can definitely imagine things which, were they to happen, I would be forced to utterly reject them and say, “No. Definitely not. That’s just so wrong, that’s impossible, that’s not what happens; here’s what happens…” Y’know? It’d have to be super-off-base in my view for me to start explaining where and why the author has “lost it” and been actually incorrect. I’m sure we can all think of instances where writing suddenly takes a turn for the worse or a creator seems to really not understand a character. For me, in the case of JK…what she says goes, within reason…unless she has a realization or mind-change that causes her to retract or modify something. (What if she really wanted to go back on something from the series due to second thoughts and an “Ugh, I wish I hadn’t written that, maybe I can change it and republish” feeling? Wouldn’t people have to accept a new truth?) I can’t really think of anything she writes (or comes up with and lets someone else write with her full approval) as mere “fanfiction”; even if I were to hate it, it’d still carry more weight than that given its origin.

      I rarely feel the need to separate “book canon” from “movie canon” unless there’s true irreconcilability (as I imagine I’d have to do were I a Divergent fan.) All I ask is that things feel right and believable/plausible, and don’t completely contradict the most official and obvious canon. “True until proven false” is how I’ll generally regard new bits of info from, say, the video games, if they seem right to me. I like having one nice, unified canon/world/story. Alternate universes and timelines that could occur if this or that event didn’t occur, or happened differently…those are always fun to think about, and maybe there can be several very close but not precisely identical parallel planes…maybe they’re not exactly parallel and have spots where they touch and places where they diverge to some degree…anyways. You get my point. I like to take and fit things together rather than dividing into this “reality” and that, this version and that.

      The methods she’s been using to elaborate upon HP are not at all what I’d have chosen. Sporadic Tweets of info get buried under thousands of subsequent, far less important Tweets. I never got really into Pottermore, beyond being sorted and getting my wand & toad. Gathering all of the official “extra info” that comes from Twitter, Pottermore, interviews, and her head instead of from the original 7-book series should’ve been a priority—neatly organizing it into a simple, easy-to-read site. (Yeah, I wanted an encyclopedia, but a site/blog would allow her to update whenever she has an epiphany or inspiration, rather than forcing people to recycle their last copy of a published book and buy another edition!) That would make it all feel much, much more official. I love the Ilvermorny essay; the James-and-Sirius short story was cute. I’m looking forward to the Fantastic Beasts series. I’d like to eventually get some Marauders-era and/or Hogwarts-founders material. I just feel JK ought to have been a bit more Hermione-like in keeping everything straight and orderly…xD

      The Hunger Games was my successor to Harry Potter—that is, the replacement books+movies+additional material (some questionable or garbage, some excellent) franchise over which to be absolutely 24/7 obsessed. It’s funny to see how “The World of The Hunger Games” is beginning to mirror “The Wizarding World of JK Rowling” with branded merchandise and plans for a stage play, theme parks, sequels/prequels/spin-offs, etc. They’re already two of the major fandoms of the world with similar fansites for news and discussion. Just some observations regarding the clear influence HP has for stories of similar phenomenal magnitude. 😉

      I’m a Trekkie as well as a Tribute & Potterhead. Star Trek canon consists of the five series and their corresponding feature films. This is easy to agree upon, as nothing else that was ever churned out in response to the hype added substantially to our knowledge in a consistent, accurate, in-character, important, quality manner. The shows & movies are what everyone watches and what you refer to when you think/talk about Trek. The Animated Series was worth a playthrough on Netflix, but not too much more. The fact that it gave us Kirk’s middle name and that’s the only bit of truly canonical material gleaned from it is fine; “James Tiberius Kirk” sounds awesome. Why wouldn’t that be his middle name? Only if Roddenberry had informed this world otherwise would it not be.

      So unfortunately, despite the couple of very positive reviews I’ve seen (Devin Faraci’s stands out), Cursed Child sounds like a disappointment. Not just because it’s so overly fanserving and fanfic-like, but because it’s not what I’d have hoped to see next. If it’s a gateway into further stories of the next generation, then fantastic! But as “The Eighth Story,” I’m feeling a little let down…because it pretty much zeroes in on only two offspring & Harry, and doesn’t go anywhere. Just back into the past to mess things up, then fix them, then return to where they started. I guess what it does well is develop Scorpius, the new fan-favorite (and I do like him already), as well as explore Albus’ & Harry’s troubled relationship.

      As to the “gay-baiting”: I don’t usually get “gay vibes” where some others do; I tend to see close bonds and friendships without sexual or romantic components. (E.g., Finn & Poe in Star Wars. Don’t get that ship. Or Steve Rogers & Bucky, etc.) However, with all the Scorbus shipping I’ve witnessed, I am now tainted, so to speak—and will never know whether it would’ve occurred to me on its own or not! Sounds as though the writing of their relationship may have gone a little overboard if people weren’t intended to see that in it. And Scorpius is in love with Rose? Mm, okay. Sounds a bit coincidental (is she the only other kid who’s really introduced and developed at all?), but all right. I’m sure that’s had shippers since the DH epilogue, just like virtually every other possible pairing of the offspring!

      Moving on: Delphi. Wow. So Voldemort & Bellatrix DO have a child together. Wow. Well, just because I wouldn’t have *seriously* considered it doesn’t mean it’s not possible and, evidently, true. Hope I like her. Bella’s my favorite baddie. As I said, Scorpius seems like a great guy. But apparently lots of people are not even mentioned once, while various beloved characters from the series are revisited for nostalgia’s sake. I expect two of my favorite things about the play to be its treatment of Draco and Snape (the latter being the favorite character who made me read the books in the first place, after seeing the first film!)

      Liked by 1 person

  2. Amazing post! I think I’ll stick with book canon and the upcoming movies. I used to include everything written on Pottermore too, but just like, I’m starting to feel like I’m being taken advantage of with it. Also, tweets as canon are silly, in my opinion. Yeah she might feel one thing one day and tweet it, but what about a year from now? She could’ve forgotten or changed her mind on something she tweeted in 140 characters or less. For me, I’m starting to be of the mind that the more the world of Harry Potter grows, the less I care or believe. Harry Potter is starting to lose the magic (pun intended).

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  3. My thoughts are the books are Canon everything else is just an extra bonus content. I feel tweets definitely aren’t cannon because it’s just a thought and out there within a couple of minutes, BUT if she decided to put that in the books maybe it would be edited out later after she thought on it some more?

    I’m excited for all the new things, movies, plays everything really but I will always love the Books and Movies the best.
    I’m excited to see fantastic beasts and read the Cursed Child but I’m going in with low expectation so I’m not disappointed and I’m trying not to compare it to the original 7 books.
    Great post!

    Liked by 1 person

  4. Wow, this is a really great post! I honestly hadn’t really ever thought of it before, but I’ve really only read the 7 books and watched the movies. I just joined Pottermore, simply because I was interested as to which house I would place in (Slytherin and Horned Serpent), but I haven’t actually read much of JK Rowling’s extras.
    I think for me, just the books are canon. I feel strange saying that as JK is putting more info out there, but that info wasn’t put in the books. I think I’d be more likely to jump on board with all the extra stuff if it she had published an encyclopedia of sorts about the world before going off on these other things (the play, the movies, tweeting random things). Then that would feel “official” to me and I’d be inclined to count it as canon, like how you’ve mentioned Tolkien and his works.
    I like what you said about feeling exploited and tired of it. It seems there is more and more everyday and almost seems like it is all for money. Are people even still reading the books or are they just seeing things online and watching the movies? Harry Potter is literally everywhere now.
    I did pre-order Cursed Child though. I’m interested to read what happens as I’m unlikely to catch the play anytime soon.
    I’m not sure I’ll see the Fantastic Beasts movie though. I honestly thought the latest trailer looked a little silly.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. YES!!!! Your point about the encyclopedia is dead on!!! I totally forgot about that – she had said she was planning one for a long time and it never happened. I feel like that would have solved all my concerns instead of Pottermore and such. I should have added that to the post, lol! I’m super excited for Fantastic Beasts, but have very low expectations for the play. We shall soon see.

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  5. This is a really interesting question, particularly what you point out about new media. Considering the way we publish is changing so fast, it is interesting to consider the way that traditional print interacts with social media. I think we’re still a little suspicious, instinctively, of anything that isn’t printed because it feels so impermanent. It’s easy to write and publish (as opposed to having to go through the tiring process of printing a physical book) and it also feels ephemeral because we access it through a screen.

    Then again, on a personal level I must admit that I haven’t read any of the additional Harry Potter materials beyond Fantastic Beasts and Quidditch Through the Ages, nor do I feel all that much desire to. I think I’m also a little afraid of spoiling the experience of the original books for myself. I think it’s a very personal preference, and although I am a little curious about Cursed Child, I’m not entirely sure if I’ll end up reading it or not.

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  6. Wonderful read, I especially liked the argument of digital vs. physical print! I just read about how Olympic athletes, as of a recent ruling, can only credit (or be credited?) by their big Olympic sponsor, if I am remembering correctly – it has since become an issue of policing social media. On a more personal note, I can think of so many parallels with comic books and superheroes as well!

    The way I deal with the above is to keep the original character I grew up with closest to my heart and appreciate the new stories, characters, etc. that are conceived to keep said character alive. Due to the ever-powerful force of nostalgia, I think everyone always holds what they knew first to be the best. Take the latest Ghostbusters reboot; that had one following snubbing it as a disgrace to the original and the other enamored with its referential treatment. I myself still haven’t seen it yet but if it is up to my standards for quality then I won’t mind it one bit, and the same can be said with spin-offs.

    As much as I love my superheroes, the fact that they are ‘taking over’ to such a degree even gets me a little weary, but when done well I fall back into my fanboy stage hard. I like to compartmentalize less successful content into different ‘universes’. 😛 As for Harry Potter, I have only ever read the septology; I think we as a society have become more leery of new releases because we inherently believe they are marketing ploys. I do trust Jo though and feel that anything she states publicly is part of the HP mythology (or WW), but I’ll always have my childhood bubble of what I remember to be canon.

    Liked by 1 person

    1. Thanks, Ben! The superhero comparison is perfect. HP is definitely not the only fandom experiencing this; in fact, it’s still a really young fandom. I must learn how to compartmentalize as you said. (Also, I thought the new Ghostbusters was great, I hope you will too!)

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  7. THIS. I feel it in my soul. I hate what Harry Potter is turning into. I hated the news of the new films and the new play. I don’t want her to keep expanding the world in this way, it doesn’t feel like Harry Potter’s world anymore. I can’t help but feel cheated each time she reveals something. At first I enjoyed that. We all did. We wanted anything she gave us. But as time passed, Harry became our childhood, a thing of our past, dear to us as a fond memory. So I feel like each new piece of information is fake. It’s not canon because it wasn’t thought of in the original series and, even though she is the creator and it might be the real canon, I choose to ignore that because it doesn’t change the series. She could say that Neville was actually a pig in disguise and that is canon now, but if you read the original series it doesn’t matter at all so it’s not “real”. It doesn’t change anything and you can still understand the books without knowing it. I have no idea if I’ve explained myself here, I’m sorry for rambling!
    Also, I had no idea that she wasn’t the play’s co-author. I saw her name and thought she had written it but needed the help of someone who knew more of theater so she got the other guy. Now that you tell me that’s not the case… well, disappointment doesn’t begin to cover what I feel. Will I still read it? Yes. I’m curious, I can’t help it. But I don’t think I’ll consider it canon.
    Great discussion! 😀

    Liked by 1 person

    1. This is what I have been saying for years and was always being scoffed at by my MuggleNet team and online fandom friends. I kept my battle and I always had solid evidence to support my beliefs.

      I’m glad to know I am no longer alone or that there are at least a good handful of others who now understand why canon needs to be restricted to the 7 books only. Yay!!!

      Liked by 2 people

      1. Yess, I was so happy to know I wasn’t alone in this. Especially since everyone is freaking out about the Cursed Child and now I’m like.. bleh.

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  8. Brilliant post!! I have to say I agree- it’s a complicated issue. I kind of take a middle-ground-ish approach. I find it fine when more is added to the story in terms of extra content on Pottermore or even an extra play. What irks me a little as an English lit grad is her offhand comments about things like dumbledore being gay or ron and hermione getting divorced. They could have been theories- which people could’ve come to on their own- but by saying that she’s made it fact. It’s kind of messing with the way people read and come to their own interpretations by making these random announcements. And it’s not like I disagree- cos I always thought Ron and Hermione didn’t go and suspected the thing about Dumbledore and Grindlewald. I guess if she’d offered it up as an interpretation it wouldn’t be as bad as just saying “this is now canon”- because expanding on a book and adding facts to the story that were not there before are not how books usually work. Books are often a conversation between the reader and the author- but when the author chimes in and gives “correct” answers for things that are in the background or interpretations, it kind of spoils that conversation. I just think of all the discussions about books I’ve ever had, trying to get to the heart of some issue and how I would have hated it if the author had popped in and just told me the “answer”. I mean, allowing for an admittedly silly comparison, imagine having a discussion about Hamlet’s indecision and Shakespeare just popped his head round the corner and said “well Hamlet was clinically depressed, so.” Sorry for my rambly thoughts- such a good discussion!!

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  9. Emily and commentors to this post,

    I’ll give you all another reason or two why the canon needs to stay within just the 7-book series if you don’t mind.

    I know you don’t like it when I use the term Fan Fic for anything that Rowling states or writes about as she is the creator of the world, but the problem I have is that once a writer has her work published and available to readers, she no longer owns that work as private property. It’s now partly mine, partly hers and partly anyone who is reading the material. Since its partly my property, I am free to roam the book and interpret the content of that book as I want to and as I imagine it. As such, anything that is added to the story in a non-published manner within the covers of my books is material that is written by fans of the book, including the author. She has become a fan of her own work (and she should be a fan because it’s brilliant) and therefore the material she adds is her version of Fan Fic writing.

    Secondly, the canon is very important to understand to make the magical world work and bringing in a different viewpoint can ultimately ruin a story for the reader. For example, is Hermione white or black? For me, when I was reading the story, she was white, for some readers perhaps she was black. It doesn’t matter what her race is as its interpreted by you as an individual reader of the series.

    However, Rowling was instrumental in the casting of the actors in that she insisted on Emma Watson as her vision of Hermione. Great! She even insisted that Emma’s voice and face be that of the Hermione character as they were building the theme parks. So to even suggest that now Hermione could have been black as portrayed in the Cursed Child play brings into these books a race issue that doesn’t need to be there and, quite frankly, is very offensive to me. If race or sexuality isn’t specifically written within the published work then by bringing into the discussion after the fact is intentional and offensive. I don’t care if Dumbledore is gay, it’s not written that way or specified within the series so to me, he isn’t heterosexual or homosexual or even metrosexual. He is just a great old wizard.

    Don’t mess with the canon Miss Rowling, these books belong to me and to every single reader that ventures down the halls of Hogwarts. The information that is within the covers of the books won’t change and our individual interpretation of the story needs to remain solid or the very foundation of your magical world will crumple.

    End rant!

    Liked by 1 person

  10. I agree one hundred percent with your post. I have struggled with this question myself, and in the end, have read nothing past the seven books. I don’t want to KNOW more, I want my thoughts to stay my thoughts and my interpretations. (To be honest, I didn’t even enjoy the movies, and stopped watching them after the third. Too many things were changed from the books for my liking.)

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